Ferretcast III - Third Time Lucky

by Kyra-Wardog

The one with innovations.
~
listen to podcast
(MP3, 66:33, 64 kbps, 29.87 MB)
Introductory Notes

It seems we still haven't learned our lesson. Here we are podcasting again. As ever, it was recorded months ago. My editing is getting better, but only marginally so - you can see the way my ambition outstrips my ability by the inclusion of brief musical interludes.

This Ferretcast contains two innovations, aside from the music I mean. We attempt a live Ferretfood Review and we are joined by what I hope will be the first of many special guest stars (although, actually, the more I listen to the podcast, the more that seems unlikely).

Programme

Minor (00m00): Introductions
Minor (01m30): Live on the air Ferretfood Review: Cappuvino
Minor (06m45): Our frankly bizarre favourite things of the week
Major (16m45): Steampunk
Minor (13m06): Arthur and Julian lose it about recycling newspapers on the London Underground
Major (37m44): Dum dum … Dollhouse (again)
Minor (46m07): Songs that Make Us Happy
Major (50m17): Old Games: New Enjoyment
Minor (1h03m38): In which we forget to say goodbye
Minor (1h04m10): In which you find out why, and we are very horrible to Julian.

Cast and Crew

Sonia
Kyra
Arthur
Dan
Julian
Jen
Rami

As ever, thanks to Rami for the technical jiggery-pokery, and also to George Gershwin. S'wonderful being out of copyright (we hope).

Articles Mentioned

Does Bruce Sterling Dream of a Cyberpunk Movement
The Epic Dollhouse Review of Doom.

Relevant Things Mentioned

Cappuvino (sadly, despite scouring the internet, I couldn't find anywhere selling this so you'll have to use your imagination, or rather, coffee silt and wine dregs, to recreate the experience)

The Royal Mail Complaints Line:
From within UK: 08457 740 740
International callers: +44 1752387112

Call of Duty 3 and, in case you need them, the lyrics to Das Lied der Deutschen
can be found here.

The Pitt Rivers Museum and The Tring Natural History Museum

Texts we summarily decided weren't steampunk: The Diamond Age, The Difference Engine, Gloriana
Seminal steampunk texts: Wild Wild West, Winnie-the-Pooh

CaramellDansen
Blowing in the Wind
Hunter
All these things That I've Done

Sarien Net: Instant Adventure Gaming
Romcheck Fail
Virtual Nes
Knightmare
Megadrive Bundle.
~

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~
Comments (go to latest)
Arthur B at 00:10 on 2009-09-30
Hooray!

By the way, I found the link for Doom Connector, the super-easy multiplayer Doom client I mention during the "new fun from old games" segment.
Jamie Johnston at 22:35 on 2009-09-30
Oh, what fun! Thanks everyone, that was great.
Rami at 17:02 on 2009-10-01
I'd almost forgotten about our live FerretFood review topic. The memories came rushing back as soon as I heard the name ;-)
Niall at 18:52 on 2009-10-01
I don't know whether they've done this specifically to enrage you, but Tor.com has just announced that October is steampunk month.

(Also the timestamp for the recycling newpapers bit should be around 27 minutes, not 13 minutes.)

(Also, for extreme pedantry, The Year of Our War was a work in progress before Mieville came along, not a response to him or to the idea of New Weird.)
Niall at 18:53 on 2009-10-01
Arthur B at 19:32 on 2009-10-01
I rage at the steampunk exhibition; the Museum of the History of Science is one of my favourite Oxford institutions and the exhibits there are already fantastic enough, I think it's shameful that they are resorting to acting as an art gallery for geeks.

Hopefully some of the dupes who are suckered into going there will at least take a look at the proper exhibits and realise that genuine Victorian technology is cool and interesting in and of itself.

(Also, for extreme pedantry, The Year of Our War was a work in progress before Mieville came along, not a response to him or to the idea of New Weird.)

New Weird is, however, a tag applied to the book, and it certainly appears to have either been influenced by Mieville and New Weird during the writing process (you really can't discount either as an influence unless the book was actually finished before they appeared, after all), or it was influenced by the same New Wave authors that influenced Mieville, and whose innovations he is boldly claiming on behalf of the New Weird.
Niall at 19:40 on 2009-10-01
it certainly appears to have either been influenced by Mieville and New Weird during the writing process

I think it is more the case that Gollancz jumped on something that they saw as similar to Mieville. Swainston had been developing her world since she was about twelve, and writing stories set in that world for many years; I think it likely there was a substantially finished draft of Year of Our War before PSS was published, though I haven't asked her to confirm that.

Having said that, yes, it was absolutely adopted by Mieville and Harrison as evidence of the New Weird -- they were aware of and trumpeting the book well before publication -- and Swainston certainly shares some influence.

I think the New Weird is "real" to the extent that there was a cluster of similar stuff being published at around the same time and people were talking about it, particularly the latter. There was similar stuff before, but that's true for cyberpunk as well (going back to Bester, via Brunner, for instance); it was the talking about it that made it stick. Not the NW was ever a "movement" in the sense that cyberpunk was, mind.
Arthur B at 19:58 on 2009-10-01
Wait, is Harrison accepting the New Weird label these days? That strikes me as odd; as I said on the podcast, Harrison's most distinctly New Weird books came out, uh, at the height of the New Wave, which all the New Weird people would like to conveniently forget because it makes them look far less original than they'd like to think they are.

If the New Weird was anything, it was people whose tastes were shaped by Moorcock and Harrison and Dangerous Visions growing up and writing fantasy in a similar vein. I've never quite found a definition of New Weird which distinguishes it from the New Wave, just as I've never seen a definition of steampunk which distinguishes it from alternate history.
Niall at 20:09 on 2009-10-01
Wait, is Harrison accepting the New Weird label these days?


I doubt it -- Mieville's not -- but to the best of my knowledge he was willing to allow his work to be co-opted as New Weird for a short period when all the discussion was happening, in pursuit of encouraging more of the sort of fantastic fiction, and engagement with fantastic fiction (both writing and reading), that he wanted to see.

New Wave is far more formally ambitious than New Weird has ever been (though perhaps not more than it was hoped New Weird would be), far more about breaking taboos (of which there weren't many left by the time New Weird came around), and far less wedded to the blending-genres aspect; plenty of New Wave is core sf or fantasy. I wouldn't call "Aye, and Gomorrah", or "When it Changed" -- to pick stories from DV and A,DV -- New Weird, for instance.
Arthur B at 20:26 on 2009-10-01
New Wave wasn't about genre-blending, but I'd argue that it briefly made it fashionable again - see Viriconium, see Hawkmoon, see The Dancers At the End of Time. I'd argue, in fact, that there's actually heaps of fantasy elements in Philip K. Dick's work, especially in the likes of Ubik and The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch and VALIS where he wants to address an intervention in human affairs by higher powers - it's just that we tend not to recognise them as such, because his protagonists usually try to apply a scientific explanation to these things.

New Wave, after all, was a reaction to Asimov-Heinlein-Clarke-styled classic hard SF, which tended to frown on mixing SF and fantasy. (It's odd, actually, how that sort of thing has slipped in and out of fashion over time.)
http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/ at 21:23 on 2009-10-01
Speaking of steampunk, Arthur (however much it annoys you), you need to go here:

http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/

It's Syndney Padua's cartoon about Lovelace and Babbage, and it's a joy and a delight, IMHO. Also, of course, steampunk. But you might like it, anyway. I particularly enjoy Wellington and his horse - and also the author's notes.
Arthur B at 21:28 on 2009-10-01
I think I posted that to the playpen; I'm far more tolerant of it than of most steampunk since it seems to remember that steampunk is basically a big joke.
Kyra-Wardog at 10:18 on 2009-10-02
On the subject of steampunk, I still await conversion ... if somebody could find me some that doesn't suck.

Thanks for the link, Mary-J - much giggling occurred, although my favourite strip is definitely the person from Porlock!.
Niall at 10:50 on 2009-10-02
I can't help much, since I don't really care for steampunk either. (I don't think it's quite true that steampunk is all pose and no plot but that cyberpunk has both pose and plot; there is an ideological basis to steampunk that provides plots -- a rejection of modernity, a yearning for technology you can make with your bare hands -- it's just not one I care for.) But hey, I'll send you this if you want...
Shimmin at 12:35 on 2009-10-02
I still haven't heard the podcast so I don't know if it'll fit your definitions, but this girl might fit the bill?
Arthur B at 17:00 on 2009-10-02
I don't think it's quite true that steampunk is all pose and no plot but that cyberpunk has both pose and plot; there is an ideological basis to steampunk that provides plots -- a rejection of modernity, a yearning for technology you can make with your bare hands -- it's just not one I care for.

Is that really the ideology? I'd question it because most steampunk seems to involve three steps:

a) Reject modern technology after a particular date.
b) Recreate exactly the same technology using steam and clockwork. It might be larger and noisier and consume more coal, but it still ends up achieving much the same end.
c) Don't allow society to develop an inch, despite the fact that major technological innovations always herald societal change (look at the printing press, look at the spinning jenny, look at the Internet).

If the steampunk ideology is really as you say, then I find it profoundly dubious, because the rejection of modernity seems to only entail a rejection of social change, not a rejection of technological advancement - which still occurs in steampunk, just down a different (and arguably highly implausible) avenue. I for one think that Victorian society was actually pretty horrific, and I wouldn't want to see life rolled back to that state of affairs.

But of course, steampunks like to imagine that they'd all be factory owners and aristocrats rather than chimney sweeps clearing the tubes of the Difference Engine.
Niall at 17:27 on 2009-10-02
Well, variations of that ideology seem to crop up in the steampunk I've read (which is not a vast amount, to be fair) in much the way that hereditary aristocracy and suchlike tend to crop up in epic fantasy. So I'm dubious of it from that point of view, as well. I have yet to come across the steampunk novel that challenges that ideology in the way that something like Acacia challenges the standard epic fantasy ideology. On the other hand, while Cherie Priest's steampunk FAQ does mention the desire for easily understood technology, she also describes it as "a rejection of history books that only tell stories about rich dead white dudes". This is not something I've actually seen in practive, but it would be nice to believe it's a possibility.
Viorica at 17:59 on 2009-10-02
Er . . . where *is* the podcast?
Arthur B at 18:09 on 2009-10-02
It's available under the "podcasts" link in the left-hand menu, where you can find direct download links; alternately, point your podcast program or 'cast-friendly RSS aggregator at this link to subscribe to the feed, which will deliver the files as they're uploaded.
Arthur B at 18:16 on 2009-10-02
Oh, and @Niall: interesting FAQ. I do think it doesn't quite reflect the reality of actual steampunk stories. There is no sense in which a difference engine, for example (to use a classic - nay, iconic - piece of steampunk kit, and the subject of an absolutely core novel in the subgenre) is "technology that’s easily understood, easily repaired, easily maintained".
Jamie Johnston at 18:46 on 2009-10-02
c) Don't allow society to develop an inch, despite the fact that major technological innovations always herald societal change (look at the printing press, look at the spinning jenny, look at the Internet).

When you put it like that, it's simply the opposite of the general rule of lazy historical fiction, to wit:

- Set your story in the past but don't allow your characters to think, behave, or relate to one another in any way differently from modern people.
Viorica at 21:27 on 2009-10-02
Ooh, I can name a steampunk movie that doesn't suck! It's called Perfect Creature, and it's set in a pseudo-1960s/Victorian New Zealand, where just about everything is powered by steam, and a church of "Brothers" (vampires) is the upper class of society, and worshipped by blood-donating humans. It's a great movie- the main plot deals with a murder investigation, but the world it takes place in is most definitely steampunk. I try to promote it whenever I can.
Claire E Fitzgerald at 11:23 on 2009-10-03
(THREADJACK ALERT!)

On the subject of New Fun From Old Games,
http://spectrummagic.emuunlim.com/index.htm just fills me with insane drooling superabundant joy. Bard's Tale, anyone? Or Finders Keepers? Or - (*explodes with happiness*) The Hobbit text adventure? And then, of course, there's THIS http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseekid.cgi?id=0002274 - a still-quite-scary graphic adventure which is actually based on the occult philosophy of Alasteir Crowley...

You'll need an emulator to play them - there's loads here and I reccommen the Spectaculator.
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/emulators.html

Scope for a few good reviews here, I think...possibly in the style of Your Sinclair.
Kyra-Wardog at 12:15 on 2009-10-05
Er . . . where *is* the podcast?


Viorica, thanks for pointing out the cunning flaw in my show notes. Naturally it was a deliberate mistake to keep readers' on their toes. Ahem. I have now linked to the actual damn podcast which should make it easier to find ;)

Bryn at 23:29 on 2009-10-10
Tor.com is having a steampunk month, apparently. I have no idea what they're like normally, but their articles so far were rather interesting reads.

Judging by what's there, it seems that short stories and animated films are the best media for steampunk. There are some great pictures and shorts on Youtube and CGSociety (skip the Atlantis one though).

I've only read one steampunk novel, The Affinity Bridge, and it wasn't very good. The author forced every steampunk trope he could think of into the story, and it didn't really work. I remember greatly enjoying The Haunting of Alaizabel Cray (essentially steampunk cosmic horror), but please be quite careful with that recommendation because I was much younger when I read it.


Oh, and... listening to that podcast has me slightly worried. Does applying to the University of Cambridge earn the eternal enmity of FerretBrain?

If so... oops. :)
Jamie Johnston at 12:30 on 2009-10-11
Oh, and... listening to that podcast has me slightly worried. Does applying to the University of Cambridge earn the eternal enmity of FerretBrain?

Not at all. We'll still like you, it just means that if we disagree with you you're automatically wrong. ;)

Good luck, though.
Kyra-Wardog at 11:20 on 2009-10-20
Oh, and... listening to that podcast has me slightly worried. Does applying to the University of Cambridge earn the eternal enmity of FerretBrain?


As Jamie says, not at all - it's just generally considered acceptable behaviour for people who live in the vincinity of Oxford to mock people who live in the vicinity of Cambridge...
Kyra-Wardog at 11:23 on 2009-10-20
By the way, in the spirit of enquiry I actually went along to the opening talk of the Steampunk exhibition at the Museum of the History of Science. It was by some American dude (Al Donovan) who put us all to slow death by powerpoint and basically argued that:

1) steampunk is really cool!
2) no, really, it's totally really cool!
3) and it has all these names/components (let me list them for you -arrrgh!)
4) did I say steampunk was really cool?
5) this is a quote from wikipedia
6) steampunk art will inspire the scientists of the future
7) by the way, steampunk is really cool

It was genenuinely really annoying - not least of all because the actual curator of the museum was standing right next to him and had some interesting things to say about putting steampunk art in the context of the items that inspired it in the first place.

Bah. Steampunk. Bah.

Suppose I should see the exhibition really?
Kyra-Wardog at 11:25 on 2009-10-20
Also: the Tor articles are really ticking me off.
Alasdair Czyrnyj at 21:07 on 2010-01-07
(First post...hooray!)

Kyra, speaking as someone who's been following steampunk for the past few years now (and has been writing for a steampunk-themed e-zine for the past year now), I found your comments to be...well, pretty accurate, truth be told.

The problem, as you guys said, is that "steampunk" isn't really a "subgenre" or an "ideology" so much as a collection of stories, written over several decades, that all share a fascination with Dickensia, Victoriana, and period pulp fiction. Heck, even the term "steampunk" was proposed facetiously by three American SF writers (James Blaycock, K. W. Jeter, and Tim Powers, I believe) back in the mid-1980s as a way of lumping together the stories they were writing, the name just stuck, people started taking it way too seriously, which leads us to the sorry state we find ourselves in today.

As for your requests for "steampunk that doesn't suck," that depends on what you're looking for. "Steampunk" runs the gamut from unreconstructed pastiches of Victorian/Edwardian SF and colonial adventure stories (S. M. Stirling's The Peshawar Lancers being a sterling example of the latter), deconstructions of the same (my personal favorite type; I recommend Theodore Judson's Fitzpatrick's War, Stephen Baxter's Anti-Ice, and Michael Swanwick's Jack Faust), to stories that play with the concept of technological progress (The Difference Engine, though I'm still trying to figure out just what the heck Gibson and Sterling were trying to say) and class conflict and revolution (Ian R. MacLeod's The Light Ages is particularly good, if slow).
Melanie at 04:50 on 2012-09-10
Hey, for some reason this file has the track title, "Ferretbrain Presents the TeXt Factor Girl Books for Girls Episode Six", in the playlist. It's the right file, just with the wrong title.
Arthur B at 07:15 on 2012-09-10
In the playlist where? iTunes? The RSS feed? I'm trying and failing to replicate the bug here.
Melanie at 16:52 on 2012-09-10
Oh! It's in VLC media player. Screenshot, although I guess there's no way to tell which episode it actually is there, except for the time. Um... actually the title is just "final3" if I play it in WMP.

Um... huh. I wonder if VLC is getting confused because at some point I downloaded and played the episode (I think?) that the metadata actually belongs to? I'm seeing that that episode has the filename "FINAL3.mp3" and this one has the filename "final3.mp3", so even though I don't think I have the other one anymore, anywhere, I guess it remembered the metadata from it for some reason and just sort of used it for this file instead of looking at what this file's metadata actually is.

Alright, well, I updated* VLC and it seems to be fixed. I downloaded FINAL3.mp3 and put it in the same folder as final3.mp3, too, and it doesn't seem to have any trouble telling them apart.


*Read: tried to update, then just uninstalled the old (again?) and installed the new version, because the update thing failed at the actual "install the new" aspect.
Arthur B at 17:03 on 2012-09-10
Sounds like VLC's problem to me. ;)
Melanie at 17:11 on 2012-09-10
Oh, yeah, but you don't want me to just say "never mind, I figured it out!", do you? ;)
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