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Comments on Wardog's Feminists in an Adventure with Pickup Artists
To be fair to Confessions, I found it overall more sympathetic to PUAs than I was personally comfortable with but I think it was a good-faith attempt to present a balanced perspective. Unfortunately, as I tried to address in the review, I think the balance was slightly skewed.
Exactly. It's the way it takes something legitimately good and helpful and poisons it with a heavy dose of resentment and hostility, and then tops it off with a layer of smarm to make it look pretty and shiny. It's like a beer commercial of dating advice.
I'm just not comfortable with the idea that because PUAs on a very superficial level offer advice that might be useful and non-harmful, they're maybe not all bad.
Feminism isn't optional, just like not drugging people or beating them up to get them to do what you want isn't optional.
But there's a point where you actually start seeing women not just as sources of sex, but as *obstacles* to it.
It sounds like she's going out of her way to treat these people with respect and that's working against her so that she's trying to find ways that she's got a lot in common with, and is maybe no better than, a guy who treated her like prey.
No woman should ever be in situation where the guy changes the subject whenever she says "take me home" and thinking about how she can be more sensitive to his needs.
Well I'm officially revolted. Shit like this makes me wonder if I'm not inherently despicable because I'm a man. It also makes me wonder why women fall for this shit and haven't subjugated malekind by now.
Well I'm officially revolted. Shit like this makes me wonder if I'm not inherently despicable because I'm a man.
Man-pride levels at a critical low! Quick, deploy counter-measures!
Oh no! Try this. I'm sure a PUA would totally approve :D
Oh stop with the boring trolling and leave us to our Disney... I didn't for a moment suggest there was anything wrong or disgusting with men.
I always thought the Beast was slightly more attractive pre-transformation :/
Unimpressive in human form, I think
There are three!
Then the story seems to turn around and realize that's kind of shitty and unfair, and decide to "reward" Belle with a "hot" guy. I mean, at least they're making an effort to be consistent. I can appreciate that.
I just think it's entirely predictable that "love people for who they are" means "women should love men even if they're ugly, even though men would never be asked to love a woman who isn't beautiful." Then the story seems to turn around and realize that's kind of shitty and unfair, and decide to "reward" Belle with a "hot" guy. I mean, at least they're making an effort to be consistent. I can appreciate that.
Whereupon he's rewarded with the love of a Good Woman. And Belle does manage to love him in his Beast form, which was required for him to be redeemed. He may not be "worthy" of her love, but he needs it anyway, and she gives it to him because she's a Good Woman.Belle shouldn't love Gaston because Gaston is not you, he's the guy who's trying to steal the girl you love with his good looks and charm. The Beast is you, the Nice Guy who is unworthy of the girl but in a just fairytale would would be gifted with her love and allowed to redeem yourself with it.
It's his own opinion of himself, which manifests as the curse placed on him, that supposedly makes him unlovable. As the self-esteem of a Nice Guy depends on how (hot) women feel about him, the salvation of everything in the Beast's life depends on his getting a woman to love him.
The story is also clear that the Beast is required to meet *Belle's* standards (and society's in general) to be worthy of her love, not his own initially selfish ones. Maybe that's the difference that makes a difference, but the underlying idea that the Beast has to earn Belle's love (and that she would be compelled to give it to him once he did) seems completely taken for granted.
He's turned into a beast because he's spoiled, selfish and unkind.
Of course he had sex with them, because he was a man, but it just wasn't as special for him as it should have been, because the fucking sluts were apparently doing it for their own reasons, and not for the sole purpose of making the PUA feel good about himself.
I still have to add thislist of animals expressing their feelings on this.
I’m absolutely 100% sure that I haven’t had sex with anyone who regretted it afterwards, nor have I had sex I have myself regretted, and I’ve plenty of casual sex.
Wait, really? Is this some kind of mega-regret that I'm unfamiliar with?
"I don't think that person really wanted to sleep with me but did anyway."
I thought we already had a word for it? (It rhymes with "grape".)
Or buyer's remorse, as the PUAs say :)
That's the act itself, not how you feel about it
Also this never made too much sense to me...I always though that (according to the PUA narrative) sex was a commodity that men had to earn from women, or at least trick them out of
Also this never made too much sense to me...I always though that (according to the PUA narrative) sex was a commodity that men had to earn from women, or at least trick them out of. At what point do women become the 'buyers' in this situation?
I thought about that too, but it seems like PUAs have updated that rusty old business model to a new one where men are selling themselves and sex is a commodity women want as much as men.
I do sometimes feel bad for them because when your self-confidence is lacking it feels really bad, but I don't think it's the sort of thing you can fake
Everyone has some self-doubts
Also, who brings up their dead friend in the middle of nookie? Like, I know it's traumatic and stuff but still.
"This physical act of love reminds me of my friend who died horribly in an accident just last week,""..."
That's hilarious. Cake or death. Orgasm or whatever. One of the things I find vaguely intriguing about pick-up artistry, actually, is the vacuum of sex. I mean, it's all about getting some, but nobody seems remotely interested in ... well ... sex.
Freudian, Cammalot, Freudian!
planned emotional manipulation of the opposite gender is okay and gratification comes from control-trips instead of agreeing to have fun together.
(It’s also becoming the go-to standard in certain areas of NYC that I have the misfortune to frequent, which is why I’m reacting too strongly to this.
Uh... I don't know if I should even post this. Is it too tangential to the topic? Sorry, I'm sick in bed and bored...
I really think this is the way we're supposed to expect het relationships to work.
Most likely, or else we are still inculcated in the exchange model of heterosexual relationships: i.e. women want babies and washing machines and security, and men want sex and computer games, and by agreeing to date each other men and women are able to get what they want by compromising on what they want i.e. women have sex in exchange for security, men offer security in exchange for sex.
Both cases seem to involve men trying to work out where the appropriate balance is between decorum and flirtation.
While assuming that "flirtation" is some kind of subtle high-pressure sales technique rather than conversation between people who are attracted to each other.
You chant the right words and make the right crotch-pointing gestures, and in a burst of mystical light, sex happens.
To be honest, like Cheriola my pulling and being pulled days are long over (thank fuck) so I'm not really well placed to be insightful on the state of the game ... but I don't know if pick-up artistry is generally more common in America.
In NYC it contributes to a kind of extended… not adolescence, but a delaying of the “ultimate” maturity of settling down. The fact that people go there to pursue high-powered careers and are also spoiled with an abundance of choice encourages people to put off settling into long-term life situations, playing the field until their mid-forties.
Now, in NYC I have access to late-night television, so I don't know if there are an equal amount of "Hot legal girls want to speak with you breathily on this outrageously expensive chat line" on UK TV. (I'm being good and doing my homework, and also not having a TV or a TV license at the moment...)
Also, Ukraine’s women might be traumatized from months of conflict: score! “The hotties won’t be venturing outdoors for a while, but the fear these women are experiencing could make pickings VERY strong for the future,” one noted. “Especially for a Westerner coming from a relatively ‘safe’ haven like the UK or US.”
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